51 replies to this topic

[Magz]

From what I can see, arcades these days are stuffed with as many B3s as they can get away with and the rest yawn, yawn lo techs. If you play, all the machines are totally dead except the ones already being played by someone else.

The ones I've been into (Thames Valley area)are virtually empty with just the grannies and a few sad losers punting in their cash on the B3s. The decline seems to have been steady over the last few years. 5 or 6 years ago there would have been an average of 20-30 people in the local Shipleys. They seem to have re-moddled to account for the sad number of current players. A lot of arcades have closed down completely.

I think any JPs above £50 should be confined to the casinos. If the sad arcades around here go bust big shame. It must still be possible to run a decent arcade with decent machines and keep it chav free. If it isn't, then what's the point...

[ForYouToEnvy]

I don't object to arcades per se. I think they should be restored to their former AWP status. In my opinion the B3 machines are drawing people into the misery of gambling who would not normally be.

Like I said, the Gambling Act 2005 is supposed to protect the weak and the vulnerable and I think this loophole should be closed. I stand by my view that B3 machines should not be allowed in arcades at all but if the law says they can have 4 then so be it. But the exploitation of the loophole is driven by pure greed. I would like to see the jackpot reduced to £10 and the stake to 20p.

I used to enjoy playing in arcades and it was a fairly controllable pleasure. I had a dalliance with the old S16 machines and quickly realised that they weren't "AWP" but proper, hardcore gambling machines which isn't my cup of tea.

I have been sickened on many occasions by the stories and observations of people spending their month's wages, etc in one of these machines in less than an hour. These are the people who need protecting from themselves.

I have already reported a number of arcades to the Gambling Commission and the local councils and am pleased that the commission have recognised that this is an issue.

Let us hope that the review does the right thing and defines "premises" as one single outlet as any reasonable person would expect.

I make no apologies to arcade owners on here. Alcohol and cigarettes are controlled to protect people and gambling is no different. Arcades should come up with new ways of attracting and retaining customers rather than just trying to fleece as much out of them in a single visit as possible.

What a load of bollocks!!
B3's run on a higher percentage then AWP's
yeah one person can lose £100's but the next person wins £100's
If arcades went down to £10 jackpots like you want the gamblers would f*** off to the bookies(have you noticed how many bookies are opening up in most towns coz of the money they make on thier FOBT's, now they are the robbers) and most arcades cant survive on what little money kids bring in.
Just becose joe blogs lost £600 in a B3 dont mean the owner has made £600, it will pay out to someone else. if said machine is on 90 percent the owner has made £60

[ForYouToEnvy]

From what I can see, arcades these days are stuffed with as many B3s as they can get away with and the rest yawn, yawn lo techs. If you play, all the machines are totally dead except the ones already being played by someone else.

The ones I've been into (Thames Valley area)are virtually empty with just the grannies and a few sad losers punting in their cash on the B3s. The decline seems to have been steady over the last few years. 5 or 6 years ago there would have been an average of 20-30 people in the local Shipleys. They seem to have re-moddled to account for the sad number of current players. A lot of arcades have closed down completely.

I think any JPs above £50 should be confined to the casinos. If the sad arcades around here go bust big shame. It must still be possible to run a decent arcade with decent machines and keep it chav free. If it isn't, then what's the point...

It was the goverment changing the gaming laws (S16's to B3's) that did the most damage

What i dont get is why people aint getting on bookies backs, thier FOBT's let you bet £100's on ONE play, arcades have a max of £1 stake per play

[Winnie]

What a load of bollocks!!
B3's run on a higher percentage then AWP's
yeah one person can lose £100's but the next person wins £100's
If arcades went down to £10 jackpots like you want the gamblers would f*** off to the bookies(have you noticed how many bookies are opening up in most towns coz of the money they make on thier FOBT's, now they are the robbers) and most arcades cant survive on what little money kids bring in.
Just becose joe blogs lost £600 in a B3 dont mean the owner has made £600, it will pay out to someone else. if said machine is on 90 percent the owner has made £60

With all due respect I think you are missing the point. The fact that someone CAN lose £600 in one go is the problem. I am well aware that £25 jackpot machines can take £300 in a session but this would be over a period of several hours giving the player ample oppotunity to get bored or have a moment of realisation and stop.

The problem with the B3s is that they can take this money in minutes rather than hours which gives the player very little opportunity to consider their actions.

The other problem with B3 machines is the fact that wins can be recycled, thus diminishing their actual payout further. If someone puts £100 in a B3 and wins £90 (over the cycle not all at once) the machine can have paid its percentage but the player actually has nothing left in the bank therefore the cycle starts again. This in my view is hardcore gambling and should not be allowed in "amusement" arcades. I think that bookmakers are more suitable environments for this gambling than arcades (although even this is questionable since anyone can walk in without ID or any barrier to entry). Ideally these machines should be restricted to Casinos, in our society everyone knows that Casino's offer high stake/high returns and can choose whether or not to play in them. Adult gaming centres have always been perceived as harmless fun and they should remain so.

[ziggy]

Ok , it seems 4 is the maximium at the moment then as winnie said.

It also seems like there are a lot of arcades around me flouting this.A bit pathetic really.

[skabaz]

I make no apologies to arcade owners on here. Alcohol and cigarettes are controlled to protect people and gambling is no different. Arcades should come up with new ways of attracting and retaining customers rather than just trying to fleece as much out of them in a single visit as possible.

just to clear up this statement,are you saying ciggies and alcohol are controlled at the moment but gambling isn't?


baz

[Richard]

What a load of bollocks!!
B3's run on a higher percentage then AWP's
yeah one person can lose £100's but the next person wins £100's
If arcades went down to £10 jackpots like you want the gamblers would f*** off to the bookies(have you noticed how many bookies are opening up in most towns coz of the money they make on thier FOBT's, now they are the robbers) and most arcades cant survive on what little money kids bring in.
Just becose joe blogs lost £600 in a B3 dont mean the owner has made £600, it will pay out to someone else. if said machine is on 90 percent the owner has made £60

No it doesn't work like that at all, as said, wins are recycled through these B3 machines, often when someone loses £600 on a B3 machine they will have actually got close to 90% payout anyhow, if they were on it a length of time.

Consider this... every spin on 90% on £1 a spin is 10p in expected profit to the arcade, say 15 spins a minute on average are played this gives an expected loss to the player of £1.50 a minute, which is £90 an hour.

Let me restate this:

EVERY HOUR THESE MACHINES ARE PLAYED THE ARCADE EXPECTS TO MAKE ON AVERAGE £90, this is representative of the 90% payout.

So if you have lost £500 yet been on the machine 6 hours, you have indeed got the 90% payout, in actual fact you have played through £5500 of credits and got £5000 back.

Given all this, you can see why arcades love these £500 B3's so much can't you...

PS:
Also might I add, that someone losing on a random game does not mean the game will pay any better to the next player, the machine does not HAVE to reach a percentage - this is only true for NON RANDOM GAMES. The percentage shown is given as an average, as all random games state... ie. roulette is stated as 97.3% - does not mean it HAS to reach this percentage ever, or that it even considers "where it's at" as such in percentage terms at any time.

[spa]

No it doesn't work like that at all, as said, wins are recycled through these B3 machines, often when someone loses £600 on a B3 machine they will have actually got close to 90% payout anyhow, if they were on it a length of time.

Consider this... every spin on 90% on £1 a spin is 10p in expected profit to the arcade, say 15 spins a minute on average are played this gives an expected loss to the player of £1.50 a minute, which is £90 an hour.

Let me restate this:

EVERY HOUR THESE MACHINES ARE PLAYED THE ARCADE EXPECTS TO MAKE ON AVERAGE £90, this is representative of the 90% payout.

So if you have lost £500 yet been on the machine 6 hours, you have indeed got the 90% payout, in actual fact you have played through £5500 of credits and got £5000 back.

Given all this, you can see why arcades love these £500 B3's so much can't you...

PS:
Also might I add, that someone losing on a random game does not mean the game will pay any better to the next player, the machine does not HAVE to reach a percentage - this is only true for NON RANDOM GAMES. The percentage shown is given as an average, as all random games state... ie. roulette is stated as 97.3% - does not mean it HAS to reach this percentage ever, or that it even considers "where it's at" as such in percentage terms at any time.

That's not a bad return for the owner. £360 an hour if they are getting played solid

[Winnie]

just to clear up this statement,are you saying ciggies and alcohol are controlled at the moment but gambling isn't?


baz

No, I'm not saying gambling isn't controlled. I am saying that certain aspects of it (i.e. high jackpot machines) aren't controlled enough. I suspect that this is largely due to the amusement industry lobbying hard (with statements like amusements arcades cannot survive without them) and ignorance as to their harm within the policy makers and indeed the public at large. The pub industry lobbyed hard to stop the smoking ban in pubs, but public awareness of the dangers of smoking is such that MOST reasonable people would agree that the ban on smoking is quite right. I'm sure if the public at large knew of the dangers of these machines being easily accessible then, again, MOST reasonable people would agree that they should be more restricted than they are.

[ForYouToEnvy]

Fruit machines dangerous???
Crossing the road is dangerous, do you want to ban cars?
Drinking on a saturday night is dangerous, do you want to ban booze in pubs?
Bein a human bomber is dangerous, do you want to ban the idiots who preach to them? Oh wait you cant thanks to human rights.
Arcade owners/workers are just trying to make a living, wages are rising, bills are rising, licences are rising and goverment kneejerks keep changing the rules that have brought the industry to its knees.
Just watch as arcades close down and get snapped up by bookies.
At least arcades have percentages and pay you out if the machine goes wrong, i've seen people lose hundreds on races that was later proven 'fixed' did the punters get thier bets back? No! Now someone please tell me how thats right?

[Magz]

Fruit machines dangerous???
Crossing the road is dangerous, do you want to ban cars?
Drinking on a saturday night is dangerous, do you want to ban booze in pubs?
Bein a human bomber is dangerous, do you want to ban the idiots who preach to them? Oh wait you cant thanks to human rights.
Arcade owners/workers are just trying to make a living, wages are rising, bills are rising, licences are rising and goverment kneejerks keep changing the rules that have brought the industry to its knees.
Just watch as arcades close down and get snapped up by bookies.
At least arcades have percentages and pay you out if the machine goes wrong, i've seen people lose hundreds on races that was later proven 'fixed' did the punters get thier bets back? No! Now someone please tell me how thats right?

Any form of gambling has the possibility to be "dangerous" in terms of the misery it can bring to the lives of those unfortunate enough to become addicts. I believe the essential argument here is whether high turnover machines should be in Arcades, The Bookies or confined to a Casino.

For me, I'd like to see VERY tight controls on machines that offer high (say over £50) jackpots and allow fast gameplay with high stakes.

I'd have it like this:

Pub/Arcade

£50 quid max Jackpot
Max 25p per play
Pre-gambles made illegal

Bookies

£50 quid max Jackpot
Max 25p per play
Pre-gambles made illegal

Casino

£1000 quid max jackpot
Max £2 per play
Minimum age 21

I don't see why bookies should be able to have higher throughput machines than the arcade or the pub or be able to take customers away from the arcades by doing so. I also don't see why it should be possible to punt several hundred quid per hour into a single machine outside of a proper Casino.

The difference for me, is that if I go to the pub or the arcade I'm expecting to play a few quid, get some gameplay and have a bit of a laugh. I'm not going there to bet a month's mortgage payment in 10 minutes and go home broke.

If this means a return to decent gameplay and "fun" fruit machines then I think the arcades might be worth a visit again. Is it really better to have an empty arcade with a few punters losing loads than a fuller one with people having a good time? I don't think so...

[Winnie]

The difference for me, is that if I go to the pub or the arcade I'm expecting to play a few quid, get some gameplay and have a bit of a laugh. I'm not going there to bet a month's mortgage payment in 10 minutes and go home broke.

You have captured the essence of what I am saying. Adult Gaming and Family Entertainment Centres (and pubs too) should remember their roots: AWP.

They are a way for players to pass an hour ot two with a bit of harmless fun.

The problem in recent times has been that people are putting (say) £40 in a machine without a single win - this has put many players off the machines. When people lose £40 like this they realise that is a week's shopping they have lost in 10 minutes - if it had lasted a couple of hours then the cost is more in line with, say, a visit to bingo and easier to justify.

When the jackpot was £10, players would be more inclined to keep playing and would therefore recycle many of the smaller wins, thus increasing the take for arcades. With the higher jackpots, smaller wins are thin on the ground and so there are none for the player to recycle.

This is why it baffles me that the industry want higher and higher jackpots, the higher they go the more it alienates the average player.

Whether this is the fault of the arcades or the manufacturers is a different debate. Personally I noticed a massive change in the way AWP machines played around the time the £15 jackpot was introduced. A good example was Astra's Big 10 which was HUGELY popular when it first came out, it used to streak fairly often (anyone remember the 7 x £5 Bar hold? or the 4 x £10 JP hold?) - which gave players the confidence to play them more as they knew they wouldn't lose £100 without a win. Suddenly they were rechipped and the streaks were gone along with any gameplay.

I was burned many times around this time (I once put £350 in a £15 JP party time and ended up leaving it out of boredom) - funnily enough this was around the time I stopped playing (along with many others). Before this I would happily spend a full day in an arcade and quite happily lose a couple of hundred pounds in the process knowing I had had 6 hours of entertainment for the money. Now, I am lucky if my £200 lasts an hour and I choose to spend my money on more value for money pursuits.

[ForYouToEnvy]

This is why it baffles me that the industry want higher and higher jackpots, the higher they go the more it alienates the average players

Do your homework, bingo halls and bookies had £500 machines BEFORE arcades, punters were leaving arcades for the thrill of higher jackpots, arcades wanted the £500 so they can compete.

Arcades are not allowed to take bets on races but bookies ARE allowed to have arcade machines


Arcades are not allowed cash bingo but bingo halls ARE allowed arcade machines

The playing field is not level

[Winnie]

Do your homework, bingo halls and bookies had £500 machines BEFORE arcades, punters were leaving arcades for the thrill of higher jackpots, arcades wanted the £500 so they can compete.

Arcades are not allowed to take bets on races but bookies ARE allowed to have arcade machines


Arcades are not allowed cash bingo but bingo halls ARE allowed arcade machines

The playing field is not level

Agreed, the playing field isn't level: People can't just walk into a bingo hall without joining first (and before you say it I know that people can join on the spot now but even this provides a level of protection as it provides a pause for reflection). Bookmakers generally deter female players because it is seen as a male environment and they aren't associated by casual players as a place to play a fruit machine.

Bingo and bookmakers are also, traditionally, places where big money can be won which brings me back to the core issue you seem to be struggling with - that amusement arcades are places for small stake/prize amusement.

Having said all that, I do agree that the playing field should be level. Bookmakers, bingo halls and arcades should be allowed only small stake and prize machines. Per the original link I posted from the Gambling Commission - gambling outlets should stick to their primary purpose. Bingo at bingo, betting at bookmakers and traditional fruit machines in arcades.

As it stands all 3 types of outlet have the same restrictions on high jackpot machines anyway. I know that the limit for bingo halls has been (or is about to be) doubled to 8 but I suppose there is some argument that those types of establishment have hundreds of people in at any one time rather than the tens that arcades and bookmakers have.

To summarise: I believe that high jackpot machines should be restricted to casinos where they belong. My gripe with amusement arcades is that some of them are either deliberately flouting the law, or at best are bending it out of greed and no other reason.

[ForYouToEnvy]

My gripe with amusement arcades is that some of them are either deliberately flouting the law, or at best are bending it out of greed and no other reason.

I agree with you on that, i know a couple of arcades in towns near me have more B3's on thier shop floors then they are allowed but i feel that they and only they should be punnished.

Arcades with B3's by law have to have staff that have been on social awareness courses and have self exclusion policys in place(a customer that feels that they have a gambling problem is given gamecare contact details and is excluded from all arcades owned by the company that they did the self exclution with, min 6 months)

Its arcades run by greedy gits that dont care about people or where the money has come from that gives well run arcades a bad name:(

[Winnie]

Its arcades run by greedy gits that dont care about people or where the money has come from that gives well run arcades a bad name:(

Agreed. Glad we found some common ground!

[jamesb99_1999]

I think that you have valid points, but in my opinion is less dangerous than online/ onsky gambling that is available now.. People don't even need to leave their home to lose money. Also remembering the fact that people can play games like Rainbow Riches and Elvis from home at a much higher stake (therefore throughput) than they ever could in an arcade or bingo hall.

One thing I would disagree with though is your idea that it is not a level playing field. An arcade can't take bets or run chargeable bingo sessions as standard however there is "nothing" to stop it applying for a Bingo or Bookies license (very unlikely it would/ or that it would get it), but it could apply to be a bookmakers and pay the extra fees.

Personally I'd like to see them get rid of high jackpot machines as I know a few people that it's ruined their lives (Frank who I know from Gala bingo had almost paid off his mortgage but he ended up having to take out a second one and can't pay it, for example)...

To me it's online gambling that is the biggest threat and risk though and should face much stricter controls.

[the god of ears]

this is an interesting topic for me because i work in a seaside arcade.
the way things are going for us with all the new legislation is not good.
things were looking up for a while when we had s16 (i can understand peoples objection to these ,as there are not really amusement machines ,are they?) the change to b3 has seen lots of regulars quit in favour of ???,maybe fobts(which the government seems to favour better......maybe because they own the tote ,and the tote makes more from these than it does from racing)
ive seen people flouting the new laws just as many of you have,mainly with people going 1 over the 4 ,so to speak.
lots of agcs are applying for bookies licenses these days ,and some manufacturers have started to aim new machines at agcs that have a bookies license, however the government has recently stated that it will take a harsh view of agcs that are only using the license to house fobts.
the say so for granting of the bookies licenses is no longer with central government though ,the same for fec and agc permits and licenses,so some areas may become top heavy and others may be refreshingly sparse of gambling opportunities and this is down to the local councils now(who incidently have raised the permit and license fees through the roof to cover "admin")i don't know which way the industries going to go for arcades , but bacta continue to fight in vain for a level playing field ,the government have recently given the bingo sector a lifeline as stated above(8 machines max)
while bacta continue to campaign for 20% of the total floor count for arcades,which in my mind the goverment will never concede to.
things for us however are not totally bleak,2p pushers if swagged up correctly continue to be extremely popular ,as does quality mechandise in cranes,novelty and redemption are making a gradual comeback too.

one more little point. there used to be a law in holland ,i think, which if i remember correctly ,stated that you could only lose x ammount maximum on a fruit machine in an hour,i forget the ammount but it was by no means large..........a good thing ,i thought at the time.

[Winnie]

I think that you have valid points, but in my opinion is less dangerous than online/ onsky gambling that is available now.. People don't even need to leave their home to lose money. Also remembering the fact that people can play games like Rainbow Riches and Elvis from home at a much higher stake (therefore throughput) than they ever could in an arcade or bingo hall.

One thing I would disagree with though is your idea that it is not a level playing field. An arcade can't take bets or run chargeable bingo sessions as standard however there is "nothing" to stop it applying for a Bingo or Bookies license (very unlikely it would/ or that it would get it), but it could apply to be a bookmakers and pay the extra fees.

Personally I'd like to see them get rid of high jackpot machines as I know a few people that it's ruined their lives (Frank who I know from Gala bingo had almost paid off his mortgage but he ended up having to take out a second one and can't pay it, for example)...

To me it's online gambling that is the biggest threat and risk though and should face much stricter controls.

I completely agree with you regarding online gambling. It is very easy to get carried away (voice of experience). I think that the only saving grace is that most of them are crap! The good ones are easy to self-exclude from (I am excluded from many!).

Maybe we are too liberal towards gambling in this country? Look at the USA where gambling is banned by default and exceptions granted to certain areas.

What happened to the regional casinos BTW? The 20 or so that the likes of Skegness won?

[roderz]

Interesting thread,
so..... what's every ones opinion on Bacta pushing for a £100 jackpot @ £1 stake on cat c awp (come the next triennial review).
That would mean every pub having them!!
I really think their pissing in the wind.