Fairplay http://www.fairplay-campaign.co.uk
You decide.. :twisted:
39 replies to this topic
#1
RB
-
- Layout Creator
-
- 3342 posts
PISH Artist
Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:32 AM
Cyberpunk:- alienated loner who lives on the edge of society in generally dystopic future where daily life is impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.....Hmmmmm
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
#2
biggazz
-
- New Members
- 3 posts
Junior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:04 PM
Whatever your thoughts i think the subject should be avoided in these nice peaceful forums. 
Gaz
Gaz
#3
barcrest
-
- New Members
-
- 337 posts
Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:29 PM
I have never seen why people are against this? At first glance it seems to bring up some very valid questions that need to be answered.
Do we really think it's right for children to be allowed to play gambling machines? Obviously there are serious issues here. Most seaside towns now have only slot machines in their arcades and if the law was to be changed so machines were only allowed to be played by over 16's then what would happen to these establishments? With video game production down to a trickle they couldn't provide much alternative and would close down.
What about coin pushing machines? Are these gambling? You put money in with the hope of winning more out, that sounds like gambling to me. How can you regulate a percentage here? Also if all gambling is to be outlawed for the under 16's then these must go also or are we saying these fall under SWP? If so where is the skill? You cannot make a coin pusher payout by being skillfull. It may drop or may not there is a random element.
I think there needs to be changes made but like anything will we be happy with the outcome?
Do we really think it's right for children to be allowed to play gambling machines? Obviously there are serious issues here. Most seaside towns now have only slot machines in their arcades and if the law was to be changed so machines were only allowed to be played by over 16's then what would happen to these establishments? With video game production down to a trickle they couldn't provide much alternative and would close down.
What about coin pushing machines? Are these gambling? You put money in with the hope of winning more out, that sounds like gambling to me. How can you regulate a percentage here? Also if all gambling is to be outlawed for the under 16's then these must go also or are we saying these fall under SWP? If so where is the skill? You cannot make a coin pusher payout by being skillfull. It may drop or may not there is a random element.
I think there needs to be changes made but like anything will we be happy with the outcome?
#4
duplu
-
- Regulars
-
- 2857 posts
Previous Owner
Posted 12 January 2004 - 12:46 PM
Can't really see the point of the 'cheating' fruities bit really. When it was first 'discovered' about 8 months ago I got quite excited (which for me is quite unusual!). Now it's just boring. The fact is the machines are pre-determined in the way they work. If you want totally 'random' machines go to the US or Australia and see how mind numbingly boring they are to play.
#5
mrcashpot
-
- New Members
-
- 212 posts
Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 01:29 PM
Coin pushing machines are actually gambling machines. There is a risk of losing. I once saw a regional news bulletin that coin pushing machines were going to be classed as gaming machines - an arcade in Torquay (Carey Parade) feared that they would lose money if the coin pushing machines were restricted to over 18s only because a lot of children play them there during bad weather.
#6
Easy
-
- New Members
- 7 posts
Junior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:17 PM
What's this? Fruit Machines ripping us off?!? NO Never. I only found this out oh, er, 20 years ago.
It tells you on the front of EVERY machine that you are going to lose. Even in an ideal world, where all's fair in love and war, Fruit machines will take more money than they pay out. It tells you this near the slot that you put your coins in!
Who honestly cares how they do it? We all know that they do.
Easy
Using the EMU for what is was meant for - pleasure
It tells you on the front of EVERY machine that you are going to lose. Even in an ideal world, where all's fair in love and war, Fruit machines will take more money than they pay out. It tells you this near the slot that you put your coins in!
Who honestly cares how they do it? We all know that they do.
Easy
Using the EMU for what is was meant for - pleasure
#7
barcrest
-
- New Members
-
- 337 posts
Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:25 PM
Can't really see the point of the 'cheating' fruities bit really. When it was first 'discovered' about 8 months ago I got quite excited (which for me is quite unusual!). Now it's just boring. The fact is the machines are pre-determined in the way they work. If you want totally 'random' machines go to the US or Australia and see how mind numbingly boring they are to play.
I said this when it first came to light all thoose months ago. I WARNED if we went down this route all we would end up with is granny machines as I can see this being the only way they could get around the false gamble problem. It also works the other way too. If you are one feature above say SUPER HOLD and the SUPER HOLD is JP so you collect the feature and try to loose a gamble to drop down a feature it will let you win every time so as not to give you the JP. Still no matter what i think we have the most entertaining machines out there and if they all became BAR X clones i wouldn't play another one again.
#8
duplu
-
- Regulars
-
- 2857 posts
Previous Owner
Posted 12 January 2004 - 02:59 PM
It also works the other way too. If you are one feature above say SUPER HOLD and the SUPER HOLD is JP so you collect the feature and try to loose a gamble to drop down a feature it will let you win every time so as not to give you the JP. Still no matter what i think we have the most entertaining machines out there and if they all became BAR X clones i wouldn't play another one again.
In the same respect when they are well over percentage then they will deliberately let you win as much as you try to lose. I'm just putting a Big Money WDX together and have put a fair bit through it without collecting much. Now I can take the gamble to £100 practically everytime I get a win - I don't think I'm really that lucky at hi-lo! :wink: If I try for the JP of course it will block me though everytime on a 2 or 11 - it will drop when it's ready.
#9
f00n
-
- New Members
- 68 posts
Junior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 03:28 PM
:evil:
Firstly....
Some people do not play these games purely for a fun element. They play them because they are addicted, like myself.
To those not addicted we seem like "stupid people" but we are not stupid , we have an illness as valid as alcoholism and drug addiction.
The stupid part comes in when you look at the machines and how they play. They are obviously programmed to rip you off. This is easy to see and every hardened gambler knows this.
The main issue though is how the games are represented and who they are aimed at. They are programmed to give users the impression they have an edge in playing if they can learn the techniques (3 time hold, blink blink features, forcing abilities etc). These techniques feed the hardened gambler and probably amuse the part-timers. These techniques then mean nothing when you realise that they only contribute in the whole "confidence trick"..or as I like to call it.... A F**king Con.
Consider the fact that this whole con is being aimed at under 18's also. Ever put £40-50 in a 5p machine to get the £5 jackpot? Would you want your kids to be exposed to a conman who plays the "Find-a-lady" card trick with your kid's and their spending money? Would you want them to become to dependant on them for entertainment that they cannot conceive another way to spend their money? I know people who turned to drugs as another way to spend their time and money away from arcades....is this your idea of a situation that ANY child should be left to deal with?
If that's not enough for you then read the "laws" that are not being applied to fruit-machines/AWP's. They are literally being disregarded by the manufacturers when creating the games. You can cycle through all the layouts here and get at least one law breaking element from it. Carefully notice the year and when the law was applied and you will find the laws have been setup to contravene what the fruity companies were producing.....to protect the player. This simply has not worked and something DOES need to be done about it.
If you are presented with a gamble opportunity then you should expect to have some sort of gamble....unfortunately for the players...the gamble comes by form of whether or not the machine wants you to win...there is no chance involved except for the timing of when you play the machine. The only way to win in this situation is to watch other people plugging their money in until you can get the chance to play and win a smaller amount than they put in....ever had someone creep over you till you go skint? This, in the past, made me put more money in because I didn't want that kind of person to win my money. Now though I respect the people who watch machines as they are obviously using their heads.
If you are addicted to fruit-machines I would advise you to read the Fairplay site as studying this topic and the way Alex has handled it has made my resolve agianst my addiction much stronger. If I can help it now I will never put a coin in a fruit-machine again.
ps. Someone mentioned we should go play in the US and Australia if we wnt to play Fair games and that they would be boring and dull. Personally i'd rather just not play them at all but I would be happier playing a US machine knowing that the set odds are much fairer than the fixed machines in the UK.
Firstly....
Some people do not play these games purely for a fun element. They play them because they are addicted, like myself.
To those not addicted we seem like "stupid people" but we are not stupid , we have an illness as valid as alcoholism and drug addiction.
The stupid part comes in when you look at the machines and how they play. They are obviously programmed to rip you off. This is easy to see and every hardened gambler knows this.
The main issue though is how the games are represented and who they are aimed at. They are programmed to give users the impression they have an edge in playing if they can learn the techniques (3 time hold, blink blink features, forcing abilities etc). These techniques feed the hardened gambler and probably amuse the part-timers. These techniques then mean nothing when you realise that they only contribute in the whole "confidence trick"..or as I like to call it.... A F**king Con.
Consider the fact that this whole con is being aimed at under 18's also. Ever put £40-50 in a 5p machine to get the £5 jackpot? Would you want your kids to be exposed to a conman who plays the "Find-a-lady" card trick with your kid's and their spending money? Would you want them to become to dependant on them for entertainment that they cannot conceive another way to spend their money? I know people who turned to drugs as another way to spend their time and money away from arcades....is this your idea of a situation that ANY child should be left to deal with?
If that's not enough for you then read the "laws" that are not being applied to fruit-machines/AWP's. They are literally being disregarded by the manufacturers when creating the games. You can cycle through all the layouts here and get at least one law breaking element from it. Carefully notice the year and when the law was applied and you will find the laws have been setup to contravene what the fruity companies were producing.....to protect the player. This simply has not worked and something DOES need to be done about it.
If you are presented with a gamble opportunity then you should expect to have some sort of gamble....unfortunately for the players...the gamble comes by form of whether or not the machine wants you to win...there is no chance involved except for the timing of when you play the machine. The only way to win in this situation is to watch other people plugging their money in until you can get the chance to play and win a smaller amount than they put in....ever had someone creep over you till you go skint? This, in the past, made me put more money in because I didn't want that kind of person to win my money. Now though I respect the people who watch machines as they are obviously using their heads.
If you are addicted to fruit-machines I would advise you to read the Fairplay site as studying this topic and the way Alex has handled it has made my resolve agianst my addiction much stronger. If I can help it now I will never put a coin in a fruit-machine again.
ps. Someone mentioned we should go play in the US and Australia if we wnt to play Fair games and that they would be boring and dull. Personally i'd rather just not play them at all but I would be happier playing a US machine knowing that the set odds are much fairer than the fixed machines in the UK.
::First jackpot::-::2p-a-go Winspin::-::£1.50 jackpot from 4p gamble::-::was still in a pram:: Anyone fancy doing WinSpin? Cant find it and would love to see it done.
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
#10
Kev
-
- Layout Creator
- 13 posts
Layout Designer
Posted 12 January 2004 - 03:38 PM
At the end of the day, if FairPlay can prove that machines are fixed, good on 'em. I'm all for the project if it is going to help stop children getting addicted to fruit machines, and stop the machines from ripping the average punter off.
I'm just put off a little by the fact that emulator development has been stopped due to this project being aired on TV using MFME.
-Kev
I'm just put off a little by the fact that emulator development has been stopped due to this project being aired on TV using MFME.
-Kev
#11
f00n
-
- New Members
- 68 posts
Junior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 03:59 PM
Yeah I have concerns about that myself but tbh this scene is now established and regardless of the result of this whole situation i'm confident it will be around beyond.
They have proven they are illegal though. Not all the information is on the fairplay website but with emulation you are able to go find this out for yourself. The laws are available to read, the layouts and roms are available (for now) to test with and to be blunt....it's pretty damn fkin obvious as addicts and non-addicts both know.
They have proven they are illegal though. Not all the information is on the fairplay website but with emulation you are able to go find this out for yourself. The laws are available to read, the layouts and roms are available (for now) to test with and to be blunt....it's pretty damn fkin obvious as addicts and non-addicts both know.
::First jackpot::-::2p-a-go Winspin::-::£1.50 jackpot from 4p gamble::-::was still in a pram:: Anyone fancy doing WinSpin? Cant find it and would love to see it done.
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
#12
RB
-
- Layout Creator
-
- 3342 posts
PISH Artist
Posted 12 January 2004 - 04:29 PM
I dont have any problems with some of the valid points raised by fairplay..
under 18's, bent arcades, illegal arcade and pub practises.....
but how does a machine adhere to its programmed % payout if things are not predetermined??
A truly fair machine could have a % payout much lower for the average player or super streak time for the pro player..in which case it would be empty...switched off and withdrawn from the market..
under 18's, bent arcades, illegal arcade and pub practises.....
but how does a machine adhere to its programmed % payout if things are not predetermined??
A truly fair machine could have a % payout much lower for the average player or super streak time for the pro player..in which case it would be empty...switched off and withdrawn from the market..
Cyberpunk:- alienated loner who lives on the edge of society in generally dystopic future where daily life is impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.....Hmmmmm
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
#13
fruitymad2003
-
- New Members
-
- 1964 posts
Senior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 05:29 PM
I play fruities whenever i can even though i know they cheat ya. Only really play them cause it can be fun and can be even funner winning!
#14
Zoltar
-
- Gold Supporters
-
- 1810 posts
Former Fat Bastard.....
Posted 12 January 2004 - 05:40 PM
In the beginning, I was 100% behind FairPLAY with it's findings and accusations. Over the months I've realised, 'so what! Machines may be crooked. Will I get any compensation?' Well, I don't care really. It's in the past. I limit my playing now so It's my own fault if I play even with the knowledge I've learnt from FairPLAY.
There are still some valid and moral arguments there too and I'd like to see those addressed. Watching 'Degsey Degsworth' make his case over at PoundRUN over the last few days has angered me to some extent. Sure, he's pushing the case but not in a very civil way. My support is dwindling as a result.
Wether emulator development has indeed stopped due to FairPLAY is highly debateable as far as I'm concerned as the creators informed us that they had stopped development several times previous to FairPLAY's existence and never posted to inform us of any resumption of development. Only the EMU creators can put us straight on the 'stopped development' issue. I'm here for emulation. Simple as that. I do hope the moral issues of the fruit machine world are brought into the spotlight for the sake of youngsters who gamble on machines but that is now really where my support ends.
It is a tough issue. Do we support FairPLAY and right some definate wrongs at the expense of killing FME, or do we ignore FairPLAY, leaving those wrongs to be for the sake of FME?
Compost
There are still some valid and moral arguments there too and I'd like to see those addressed. Watching 'Degsey Degsworth' make his case over at PoundRUN over the last few days has angered me to some extent. Sure, he's pushing the case but not in a very civil way. My support is dwindling as a result.
Wether emulator development has indeed stopped due to FairPLAY is highly debateable as far as I'm concerned as the creators informed us that they had stopped development several times previous to FairPLAY's existence and never posted to inform us of any resumption of development. Only the EMU creators can put us straight on the 'stopped development' issue. I'm here for emulation. Simple as that. I do hope the moral issues of the fruit machine world are brought into the spotlight for the sake of youngsters who gamble on machines but that is now really where my support ends.
It is a tough issue. Do we support FairPLAY and right some definate wrongs at the expense of killing FME, or do we ignore FairPLAY, leaving those wrongs to be for the sake of FME?
Compost
#15
barcrest
-
- New Members
-
- 337 posts
Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 07:25 PM
To be honest, i don't think FME will die because of this. Like you said it has stopped several times before and has always come back. As we don't have any new techs in the pipeline then we are not really mssing much. I must agree with the you on the attitude of degsy,nicky or stuart whatever he's calling himself these days.
#16
f00n
-
- New Members
- 68 posts
Junior Member
Posted 12 January 2004 - 09:44 PM
indeed
until we get new technology to emulate (MPU5, scorpion4 etc) then the scene can legitimately rest as far as the emulaion goes....it's now down to the layout ppl to keep it going.
Don't forget its the fruit machine companies that don't want you to have the roms and technology to emulate. Why would they do that? If their machines are legal then they have nothing to hide. On the other hand...the only machines we get to play are that old they may not apply to the law in the same way...either way the law doesnt get upheld in any way except a few labels on the front of the machines saying "payout 70%" ....why doesn't it show the percentage as a variable figure? cuz we would never play em on low percentage routines. Why? Because you cant win....
until we get new technology to emulate (MPU5, scorpion4 etc) then the scene can legitimately rest as far as the emulaion goes....it's now down to the layout ppl to keep it going.
Don't forget its the fruit machine companies that don't want you to have the roms and technology to emulate. Why would they do that? If their machines are legal then they have nothing to hide. On the other hand...the only machines we get to play are that old they may not apply to the law in the same way...either way the law doesnt get upheld in any way except a few labels on the front of the machines saying "payout 70%" ....why doesn't it show the percentage as a variable figure? cuz we would never play em on low percentage routines. Why? Because you cant win....
::First jackpot::-::2p-a-go Winspin::-::£1.50 jackpot from 4p gamble::-::was still in a pram:: Anyone fancy doing WinSpin? Cant find it and would love to see it done.
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
Only £500 jackpot on Little Devils which I got waiting for a Rainbow Riches (£70) feature to end. Then I got £210 on the feature on Rainbow Riches. My mrs was happy that day!
#17
RB
-
- Layout Creator
-
- 3342 posts
PISH Artist
Posted 13 January 2004 - 12:35 AM
The fme scene will probably survive whatever happens with FairPlay...
The major contention i had was the way in which the "spokes person" seemed to conduct himself with regard to the issues he was addressing.
A few lessons from Alex M and his IOM campaign wouldnt go amiss.
Rather than "f*** you twats im right, im right" etc etc etc..
hopefully it will all end very soon and we can get back to arguing about 1280 over 1024 resolutions again....(damn, wasnt that the same guy)
RB
The major contention i had was the way in which the "spokes person" seemed to conduct himself with regard to the issues he was addressing.
A few lessons from Alex M and his IOM campaign wouldnt go amiss.
Rather than "f*** you twats im right, im right" etc etc etc..
hopefully it will all end very soon and we can get back to arguing about 1280 over 1024 resolutions again....(damn, wasnt that the same guy)
RB
Cyberpunk:- alienated loner who lives on the edge of society in generally dystopic future where daily life is impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body.....Hmmmmm
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
#18
handsome_rob
-
- Layout Creator
-
- 175 posts
Layout Designer
Posted 13 January 2004 - 01:23 AM
What's this? Fruit Machines ripping us off?!? NO Never. I only found this out oh, er, 20 years ago.
It tells you on the front of EVERY machine that you are going to lose. Even in an ideal world, where all's fair in love and war, Fruit machines will take more money than they pay out. It tells you this near the slot that you put your coins in!
Who honestly cares how they do it? We all know that they do.
Easy
Using the EMU for what is was meant for - pleasure
that was so f*****g spot on i had to copy it.
Nothing else to add either
#19
Protocol
-
- New Members
- 98 posts
Junior Member
Posted 13 January 2004 - 05:03 AM
I agree with that too.....it doesn't matter which method you play the game, wether u take the feature early or later, a machines a machine it'll have to payout the percentage its suppose to. Its all about being in the right place at the right time, but one thing i don't like is when a parent plays on a fruity while the baby or child is either bored out of their head or is crying their headoff in the arcade....i remember one time this kid just came up from under my hand and pressed the button and nudged in a pound for me....i would normally be greatful for a win as such, except in this occasion, i had enough nudges for jackpot...im sure it was on Jewel in the crown....Grraaa!!! kids!!!
#20
tracey2
-
- Layout Creator
-
- 390 posts
Layout Designer
Posted 13 January 2004 - 08:54 AM
A just question if Fair-Play are trying to randomize fruit machines how do right a program or rom for something that isn't fixed before hand or when a payout cycle starts etc. From a gamblers point of view i'd say leave them alone, random machines would be based on luck rather then skill or knowledge also pre-set machines with a set program can be manipulatated in doing things to help you win more eg. 02'Vivids, bellfruit super holds, Just the Ticket etc.
2 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users
