89 replies to this topic

[mixer]

When slot jackpots rose from £70 to £100, the pub trade rubbed their hands thinking their takings would go through the roof. Tricksters - professional slot players - thought so too. However, contrary to expectations takings have actually DROPPED since their implementation! Why is this?

 

Well, there are three types of slot gambler. Let's look at the impact of the new jackpots on each group.

 

1. Casual punter; happy to put a few quid in. Gamblers in this group have realized that the chance of hitting the jackpot is further away than ever and now that it can take over £10 to get a board now, just isn't worth it. Players have realised that the new game profiles are so flat that you can predict with tedious monotony where the 'bars' are; e.g. certain DONDs will give you £6, others £3 as usual...

 

2. Regular punters; wannabe tricksters. Think they know slots and are happy to plough loads in, sometimes a couple of hundred! But, alas, chasing the jackpot these days is a mugs game as it's further away than ever. It is this group that have cut down the most and sought sanctuary (and better odds) in the bookies instead; but even here the tricksters are in the know - but that's another thread for another day. Put simply, punters in this group didn't mind losing money as long as there was a consolation payoff at the end - but now, this group aren't even getting any sort of payoff and are leaving the slots in droves. It is this group that are abandoning the slots the most.

 

3. Tricksters; people that genuinely know the machines through a combination of "tells" and various game "features" that Joe Public would never know; it's all strictly between the machine programmers and the highly-developed distribution channels in which the valuable information is passed and shared. But this group are finding the going tougher, because there isn't the required turnover that would usually extract the profit (yes, I'm aware tricksters don't necessarily go "all out" for the jackpot, sometimes a series of small wins is the way forward). Therefore, normally pub routes have had to change so adjust to the new regime. (However, Tricksters have a new 'trick' up their sleeves - the DOND (and clones) £100 Cashpot trick - and no, I'm not revealing it! Ever wondered why a dead machine has just paid out the Cashpot..........Regular punters beware

 

So, in summary, £100 slots might be a step too far and too high. I'd be interested in other views on the forum, and whether we might see a resurgence of £70 jackpots, the jackpot level that all gamblers feel they can have a crack at?

 

Thanks to 'Big' Marky, one of my trickster mates, for some of the info in this post.

Edited by mixer, 08 March 2014 - 06:48 PM.

[NickYerPesos]

Same thing happened for £35-£70. Theres another group of people you missed out... the hammer it, grab it and get out group.. getting more and more members of that group all the time.

[banditboy2006]

yeah you have to get off a machine after you hammer it

 

did that once on a small 5r relflex took 67 quid out i put 50 in mind 

 

but as i was playing the next machine a old couple put over a ton through it and plus it took them 50 for there first bank raid feature for 2 quid lol

[mixer]

You're right NickYourPesos, the 'hammer the machine' brigade are a force to be reckoned with (although I think they're a subset of the trickster category!)

My favourite DOND trick is getting 8 streak boxes (red) and 'guaranteeing' the mega - obviously I won't put the full details here (and in fact have deliberately kept the trick a bit misleading)

[nails]

I played a DOND wit adydb when we went for a drink, showing after £20, triple board showing after £40 in.... £200 quid later I take a board - 1p. 2nd was just a double board and that was £100. then it went flat as a pancake.

 

wont play a triple dond again. and if im stupid enough to I will take the first dond feature and foxtrot Oscar.

[banditboy2006]

the 100rs are suck suck suck payout a jackpot then suck more then payout a 200 mega then repeat

[mixer]

You're right banditboy2006 that's exactly the pattern if you go 'all out'. It's all about making sure that you're on the 200 mega part of the cycle (and there's a distinct 'tell' for that ).

The profile's flatter on Bank Job and clones but the same principle. And if you ever take a win you simply push the jackpot further back and the 'hammerers' know this is a cardinal sin!

[carlosgee]

I hit COB on one last week and dropped the cashpot for 100 but I didn't enjoy the gaming experience from these, im staying clear

[banditboy2006]

the 5 quid machines are the same

 

for example lady luck- bank raid suck suck suck with a odd 2-3 feature suck more throw a 17 quid feature in then about a 10r later do the roll in streak for 40 quid then about 40 in after till it runs out of money then it will suck for 150 after

[vectra666]

For me machines went shit after the jp went from 25 to 35 and the stakes also went up I'd say around the 2005 mark, machines seam to be tighter after this date. Take my favourite partytime they used to give a good game pre 2005 even 3x holds on jp and managed a £185 top board feature on £25jp now it's more sucking than a Thai prozze, sucky sucky £2 top more sucky sucky £5 top lol then dead for another £50. Then there's the higher stake, higher % what's all that about an extra 4% for 50p a pop wow you save £4 on every ton you whack in, the machine still pays out the same I find it actually worse on 50p than 25p. As for the 70's - 100's I stay well away just the odd quid if they're lucky of which I'm not

[piesthecat]

These 100ers are doing my head in, Was playing DOND the other day put a fiver in to see what was going on.. First board 3 moves question mark so after COB'ing it i get super streak.... In my head thinking should be around £25 as it was £20ish on 70s... £15 in 3 spins of super streak, what a load of shit that was.

 

Won't be playing these anytime soon.

[NickYerPesos]

Heard reports of people getting £5 on win stepper on the £100 dond's wtf is going on there.

I imagine a lot of donds are gonna get smashed up then

Little bit funny though.. teehee

Edited by NickYerPesos, 11 March 2014 - 11:56 AM.

[Magz]

It seems strange that the manufacturers don't get it still. It's a if they aren't interested in the casual punters.

 

Hangon...

 

They're not - are they.

 

Why chase the punters at £2-5 at a time when you can concentrate on the core of proper gamblers. Eventually they'll get to £500 jackpot and then campaign to get the FOBT style machines into the pubs as well.

 

Sadly, it's just not worth it to try and regain the lost casual punters. Shame, but that's the way things are going. On the plus side, once the FOBTs are in the pubs it'll mean that they'll be viable again...

Edited by Magz, 11 March 2014 - 05:03 PM.

[mixer]

You're right Magz; the £100ers are all geared up to the serious punter. Casual players are no more; they've had enough. Take the Snakes and Ladders £100 game at £1 a stake. Basically, it's all out, hoping you get to the top of board before you've stuck £100 in; and, as you probably know, each feature games takes you closer and closer to the jackpot. At 76% payout, though, that's an average £24 loss (per ton), and that's before you've paid the trickster "premium" (i.e. always assume every slot is pretty much dead before you go on it) and it makes you wonder if it's worth hammering them if you're not in the know.

Unless you can nip in before the tricksters do their rounds, then you might have a slightly better chance!

It's a matter of time before FOBTs infiltrate the pubs, at the next triennial review in 2017 it'll happen; jackpots will go straight from £100 to £250 I reckon (won't be the £500 jump). And watch out for a new government tax creaming off more of the profits.. and 72% payouts everywhere

Edited by mixer, 11 March 2014 - 08:16 PM.

[straekseims]

"tricksters" you sound as bad as landlords who ban you for "Winning jackpot" when your £150-£200 in

 

You gonna say we use magnets on plastic reels next?

 

We don't use scams we simply know how to play a fruit machine, if you can drive a car well it don't make you a rally car driver.

[aaamusements]

You're right Magz; the £100ers are all geared up to the serious punter. Casual players are no more; they've had enough. Take the Snakes and Ladders £100 game at £1 a stake. Basically, it's all out, hoping you get to the top of board before you've stuck £100 in; and, as you probably know, each feature games takes you closer and closer to the jackpot. At 76% payout, though, that's an average £24 loss (per ton), and that's before you've paid the trickster "premium" (i.e. always assume every slot is pretty much dead before you go on it) and it makes you wonder if it's worth hammering them if you're not in the know.
Unless you can nip in before the tricksters do their rounds, then you might have a slightly better chance!
It's a matter of time before FOBTs infiltrate the pubs, at the next triennial review in 2017 it'll happen; jackpots will go straight from £100 to £250 I reckon (won't be the £500 jump). And watch out for a new government tax creaming off more of the profits.. and 72% payouts everywhere

I hope they tax the arse off FOBTs personally. Anything that makes them less profitable is fine by me.
As I've said before, the MGD was aimed squarely at getting a fairer tax deal out of the betting terminals, they certainly weren't making a proportional contribution before that.

I don't believe that they will ever get legislated into pubs, too many people have realised just how dangerous they are by now.

[wayne123]

I think the whole concept of fruit machines in pubs have been building up to this type of machine for a while now, everyone knew that those cabinets in the corner of the pub were ultimately there for a reason – to make the landlord a profit, but there was a time where you could have fun on those machines, and although capable of taking a weeks wages – it could take some time for it to do it.

 

I thought one of the biggest drawbacks was the note acceptors, at least before you had to go to the bar and change a note for nuggets to play more on the machine – yes it was time consuming – sometimes embarrassing, but you could at least take stock of how much you were spending – now –I and probably you have seen it, punters can put there wages in without moving from the machine, again clever design – I know jackpots have increased etc and the manufactors will use the hopper level as an excuse, but surely you can increase a hopper capacity..

 

Years ago the fruit machine would literally make a song and dance about paying out, remember the long metal trays?, they would echo a dropping coin for miles, when a machine paid out in tubes, you thought that you had won a fortune, then there were hoppers, again if you have won a few quid, when they paid out your whole bank, interest from people would turn to the machine, this payout system then changed to paying out a few coins at a time, £3, £5 or I think now £10, this reduced the ‘noise and celebration’ of paying out, but also gave you ‘chance’, to reinvest your winnings to a bigger bank, it also gave the impression that from viewing afar the machine was paying out as much – tempting future punters to have a go, this all then changed when note recyclers were used – again the excuse is the hopper capacity. I saw someone win £100 on the new DOND machines, and it paid it all out in tenners, - apart from the squeeking sound of the note recycler there was no indication of the person winning, - and of course the machines now offer the facility to transfer you winnings into credit saving you the bother now of even taking the note out of the machine, in fact some machines pay smaller winnings straight into credit rather than banking it.

 

I loved the fact that if I have won some cash, I would have a handful or two of pound coins, and would have to go the bar and cash them in, maybe I’m getting old ?

 

These machines are as people have already mentioned, all or nothing machines, the profile has completely changed, top features now pay £15 etc (previous post re Super Streak payout), the option of stakes is also problematic, to get the full benefit of the machine you have to pay the £1 a go, a recent DOND machine have 4 reels, only 3 work on the 25p / 50p play, only the £1 will get that last reel working, other only offer ‘bonuses’ on the £1 play.

 

The 100% holdover rule has also helped finish off the casual punter, to me the casual punter will put a few quid in – win or lose they will leave the machine, the new holdovers will last ages, such as banking nudges, I saw someone ‘bank 2 nudges’ on a £1 play, years ago these nudges would be offered on the very next game (ideal for casual punters), but these nudges were still in the bank and had not been offered after 50 games – yes it cost £50 to get these nudges into play – still no win though!, some machine reels will go red, indicating the machine is ‘enhanced’ to payout, these reels can stay red for ages.

 

And finally, the jackpot on the newer machines seem to be given begrudgingly quick flash of the lights, bang straight into the bank, even the mega streaks are over in a flash – it seems the machines profile as I said at the beginning, doesn’t want to attention of payout out, just the impression everyone is losing, and maybe someone else can win on it. 

Edited by wayne123, 12 March 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[straekseims]

To stop landlords banning people who put the most money in machines (fruit machine players)

 

would rather have £200 out in 10ers to 200 coins dropping out in front of Biffa Bacon and his krones who then think about following you outside....

 

had a fruit in a pub that would love to give near £200 out in wins (if it had been played a lot and you knew what you was doing) and it paid notes....never got a comment or a ban................same machine in another pub that only paid coins.....1st go I put £130 in to get £80 and then 2nd time I pub £60 in to get £190 and by the time it had paid out 90 I had all the comments.....then by the time I got £150 out I was accused of scamming it....and then after the £190 I was asked to leave or the police would be called.

[mixer]

Some great comments on this thread. Firstly, straekseims, I've nothing against tricksters per se; if you're using your skills then good luck to you. However, some tricksters can be intimidating and I don't like that behaviour especially in my local, for example (although, on one occasion, a particularly obnoxious trickster was 'seen to' and he wisely left the area altogether. Still brings a smile to my face that one!)

 

Fully agree with your comments wayne123. I'm also of the generation where changing up winnings over the bar was a special moment; as you say, now jackpots are paid in a flash and there's no sense of occasion. Quite deliberate, as you say - who wants to go on a 'dead' machine?

 

I would only add that the slots are controlled so tightly now (by tricksters/hammerers) that there are now two modes of play: dead and dead. And if you don't know the significance of the streak symbols on DOND machines (and the Cashpot conundrum), then you're missing such a big trick you are at a massive disadvantage straight away. If you're not in the know, then it will also take you extra £££ to secure the jackpot / series of large wins. (And how many times have I seen losing players deliberately take the Super Streak for a consolation £15/£20 [nooooo!], leave the machine then a trickster dive on it to take a quick £35/£40 straight after...!)

 

'Bank Job' and clones are very easy to play: it's a case of "all out" hammering a la Barcrest. Once you start getting "HiLo Jackpot" on the "?" square and landing on the Skill square this points to a happy machine (MEGA TIP! If you land on a ? and get "Continue" then it's on it's way and ALWAYS worth pursuing. You'll know on your very first feature board so it's not expensive to find out). Ensuring you always land on a red Bank Job, the payout tends to alternate between 70/140/70/140 etc (or 100/200 on the new machines) and it's a case of ensuring you 'catching' the 140/200 part of the cycle to make a profit (you'll more than likely make a loss chasing 70/100). Playing all out on Bank Job and clones is very interesting; for about £20 before it's ready to drop, the machine will appear to go 'cold' - but don't be put off; don't buckle! There are other tells and tricks but cannot reveal them here on pain of a grisly demise. Here's one for free though - get 5-7 red Bank Jobs in a row on the feature and it will flash (just Go All the Way, but "in a certain way" to maximize the 140/200 route...) - I'm not giving away much really though  

 

Again thanks Markie for the gen!

Edited by mixer, 14 March 2014 - 07:43 PM.