81 replies to this topic

[Jez_Shaw]

Romx - thx for the reply, if you use the notion that you pull a "random" ball out of a bag of balls numbered 1-9 and return that ball, the odds of you pulling 12345 and 12234 in order are exactly the same (1/9*1/9*1/9*1/9*1/9). The odds only change if you don't put the ball back, there fore your not measuring melons with melons.

Correct, but if you have more than one of certain numbered balls, then the odds change. If your bag now had nine balls numbered 1,2,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 then the odds for drawing 12345 change to 1/9*2/9*1/9*1/9*1/9.

The other assumption that seems to be made is that the value of a win is determined by the generation of a single random number (i.e. one pick from the bag). A machine can still be purely random if you determine the win level on a mumber of picks.

For example picking balls 1-9 three times:

A 50p win could be gained if 1,2, or 3 are selected every time. The odds are 3/9*3/9*3/9 or one in 27.
On the other hand a Jackpot would be awarded if three 9's are pulled out in succession. The odds now are 1/9*1/9*1/9 or 1 in 729.

The machine is now still purely random, but you are now more likely to get a 50p win over a jackpot (27 times more likely).

Replace the monetary amounts with fruit symbols, and you can determine which symbol will drop in on each reel every spin.

As an afterthought old mechanical machines got round this issue by putting more of one symbol on each reel than the others. These were still 'totally random' by definition, but you had more chance of spinning a cherry in than a Jackpot.

[romx]

As an afterthought old mechanical machines got round this issue by putting more of one symbol on each reel than the others. These were still 'totally random' by definition, but you had more chance of spinning a cherry in than a Jackpot.

this is what i based my idea on. i dont have a clue what method they use but this was a very simple idea which i have used in programming. using the idea of a big bag of bingo balls that has more of a specific number than others therefore giving a greater chance of that number being pulled out.
once a number is pulled out its put right back into the bag and given a good shake keeping the odds the same of a repeat number of the same value

[GaryMPU34]

Thanks for the welcome guys, appreciate it.

Romx - thx for the reply, if you use the notion that you pull a "random" ball out of a bag of balls numbered 1-9 and return that ball, the odds of you pulling 12345 and 12234 in order are exactly the same (1/9*1/9*1/9*1/9*1/9). The odds only change if you don't put the ball back, there fore your not measuring melons with melons.

The same should be said for these machines, it is dependent on the odds of a jackpot falling - say 1,000/1 per spin, there is a 1,000/1 chance it will drop the very next go (1/1,000*1/1,000) - lol a million to one shot, the Saga grannies at our local Gala do those sorts of numbers every night on these things.

However, what the flyer states is that 92.6% of your investment will be returned, how do you do the "random maths" to achieve that ? only by programming it, surely ?

firkin

I love this site, it's like 7-heaven all over again.


Just read the replies, they perhaps explain the potential for the number generator better than mine

Firkin

I can do you a full explanation of how RHF is random with a set payout percentage if you want but I beleive its already been explained here before.

If you cant find the post then let me know and I will run through it again

[firkin]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Have the same kind of discussions on the poker forums.

[d0uga1]

i just thought id add to this thread this that i was told on a visual basic forum when i was asking about a random number generator.

A program created on a computer which is supposed to retrieve numbers in a random sequence can be manipulated in a way which will produce numbers of the same value more than once this is done by using the statement "Randomize" if you wanted the numbers to be produced without any duplicates you have to set a string and have it run by the values you stipulate in you string. These numbers are produced by the computers system date at runtime of the program.

i just thought i put it here.

[RoadRunner]

someone told me that there are millions of combinations programmed in, the random number generator picks one of these combinations, and displays/spins it in. No combination should be seen twice within the amount of combinations programmed in, until they have all been shown once, then its sort of reset and the whole process starts again. The amount of combinations programmed in averages the payout to whatever it says.

Hence why rarely, 2 jackpots will come out together as the random generator has selected the combination number to spin the jackpot in, and within so many spins, every programmed combination has been spun, so its reset back and the 2nd jackpot just happened to be what this random generator decided to show in the new cycle of programmed combinations.

Make sense, i thought not, i know what im trying to say though!

I also think ive just gone bosseyed.

[stevedude2]

If there are 1,000,000 spin combinations and on a game you get spin number 345,298, that spin combination has the same chance of coming in next go ie. 1 in 1,000,000. There are no cycles as such. If you pick a spin it doesn't get crossed off the list until every other one has come out. The game would be flat and predictable this way as once you've had a jackpot, you know it won't come back for x amount of games.

People are so used to controlled/skill/pseudo-skill/non-random games that they can't seem to grasp what is blindingly obvious - S16 games are just 'Bingo' games in disguise.

I can't see how people can find it so hard to understand how basic they are, I really can't.

[nafanny29]

It sounds like this machine works in exactly same way as all the slots do in Vegas. They are all totally random by Law over there.

[firkin]

I think its the use of the word "Random" that I have an issue with.

But it is interesting to see the different theories on what makes these machines tick.

[fruitman69]

If there are 1,000,000 spin combinations and on a game you get spin number 345,298, that spin combination has the same chance of coming in next go ie. 1 in 1,000,000. There are no cycles as such. If you pick a spin it doesn't get crossed off the list until every other one has come out. The game would be flat and predictable this way as once you've had a jackpot, you know it won't come back for x amount of games.

People are so used to controlled/skill/pseudo-skill/non-random games that they can't seem to grasp what is blindingly obvious - S16 games are just 'Bingo' games in disguise.

I can't see how people can find it so hard to understand how basic they are, I really can't.

I totally agree it is boggling how people cant grasp this at all lol
PS i have seen a slotto pay 2 JP's 3 spins apart they had 512 in the bank and were going to play to 500 and in it came again awsome wish it was me lol

Steve

[U.D]

okay so on the subject, what about Astra's Mega slot (the 4 player version, to me the only decent £500 jp game out their). Fair play it becomes random as to when it goes up to the top reels on the big screen but what about then? does it decide on a fixed amount its going to give you before it puts you back down? as i doubt that to be random?...

[nails]

if you have a fix reel or just random video reels, the % is based on probability...

however..

games like cashino or even astras SLUTTO, have sub games that are not random, the win achieved by the sub game is pre-determined by paying percentage, otherwise a £500 spin would be theoretically possible.

if the normal reels based games are not paying its % it is made up by the sub game, and vice verser.

thats my view, and im sticking to it.

[Domgoth]

Yeah we all like machines like that.....

Try doing it another 10 times then post back you like it!!!!

Yes well said !!!

[fruitman69]

If there are 1,000,000 spin combinations and on a game you get spin number 345,298, that spin combination has the same chance of coming in next go ie. 1 in 1,000,000. There are no cycles as such. If you pick a spin it doesn't get crossed off the list until every other one has come out. The game would be flat and predictable this way as once you've had a jackpot, you know it won't come back for x amount of games.

People are so used to controlled/skill/pseudo-skill/non-random games that they can't seem to grasp what is blindingly obvious - S16 games are just 'Bingo' games in disguise.

I can't see how people can find it so hard to understand how basic they are, I really can't.

Me neither its so simple !

[Winnie]

And the debate rumbles on...

I am adamant, though, that Section 16 machines are NOT random. I have a Magic 500 at home and have played about £250,000 through it (get a life!) and it does not pay the jackpot until it has taken enough money to pay it.

The rules on Section 16 machines say that they have to have a RNG fitted, does it actually say that the machine has to use it in a random manner?

BarXs must have an RNG otherwise the games would be in the same sequence all the time and does anyone even try to maintain that they are random?

[nails]

i`ll tread lightly when i refer to my own section 16`s....

for starters, s16 machines, especially random spinner and party SLUTTO are very clever in respects of the money they are constantly paying back. spinner IMHO gives more small wins and more constant, thus its payback percentage via wins is higher than other, so once you have played your £20 £40 or £100 etc, you have already played the wins it has given you also.

Stevedude2 has stressed (to say the least) that Astras Party Slutto is very much RANDOM. but i guess it all boils down to personal points of view here. We do see that the spins from SLUTTO appear to be random, more to the point, when the machine is ready for a win, say £2. the array of the 15 fruits will appear at random. (this classic difference can be observed on random spinner where the wins/reels seem to repeat themselves - as does projects mega bar £500)

winnie has a machine identical to me, though mine is just rebadged vegas500.
i know exactly what winnie has experienced, the pure fact that perception on playing the machine way over rules the apparent facts, and that random `could` possibly be manipulated.

Stevedude2 has assured me that the entry in the manual for astras party SLUTTO regarding the users "must under no circumstance perform a RAM clear" is merely an error, and something copied from previous AWP manuals (these were not exactly the words, but near as damn it). But the same text also exists in the manual for Bellfruits random spinner?

The debait will go on untill someone is able to tell us exactly how they work, and what the RNG is doing - in relation to a machine that has an aiming percent. and while im here.. why does party SLUTTO go slow before a big payout??

(of course i could be dreaming the slow spin before i got a £500jp last week)

all text is the humble opinion of myself and has no reflect on astra or its employees

[mangolio]

This is my opinion (flaming expected). I do not belive these machines are totally random whatsoever. I have been playing an elvis sec16 a lot lately and it does things that make me feel it aint random. When the reels spin some of the features in it begins the feature before the last reel has finished therefore it knows what it is going to do before it does it.
When you get the top disc feature it lands either side of the £500 far too regular to show it as being random.
When you get the guitar feature it must surely know what it is going to pay before it starts so again I dont htink it is random.

And finally how can a 100% random machine have any kind of percentage to play towards?
These points have probably been answered before but I wanted to post my thoughts anyway.
Mangolio

[fruitman69]

This is my opinion (flaming expected). I do not belive these machines are totally random whatsoever. I have been playing an elvis sec16 a lot lately and it does things that make me feel it aint random. When the reels spin some of the features in it begins the feature before the last reel has finished therefore it knows what it is going to do before it does it.
When you get the top disc feature it lands either side of the £500 far too regular to show it as being random.
When you get the guitar feature it must surely know what it is going to pay before it starts so again I dont htink it is random.

And finally how can a 100% random machine have any kind of percentage to play towards?
These points have probably been answered before but I wanted to post my thoughts anyway.
Mangolio

Hi,
I dont know exactly how the guitar feature works on elvis etc but i would strongly expect your right about it knowing what its going to pay but this dont make it NOT random all it is, is that the odds have been worked out in such a way that there will be an average amount to be won from feature and that is picked at random each time .....


For example

£10
£15
£20
£25
£30
£40
£50
£100
£150
£500


Supposing the values above were the set feature values and if one was picked at random every time the average feature value would be £94 with this in mind it is easy to see how it can know what its going to pay each time and still be totally random..... There are lots of ways to do it and this is just one of them and is only an example but hopefully it gives some people an idea how random can be " controlled "

Steve

[mangolio]

Hi,
I dont know exactly how the guitar feature works on elvis etc but i would strongly expect your right about it knowing what its going to pay but this dont make it NOT random all it is, is that the odds have been worked out in such a way that there will be an average amount to be won from feature and that is picked at random each time .....


For example

£10
£15
£20
£25
£30
£40
£50
£100
£150
£500


Supposing the values above were the set feature values and if one was picked at random every time the average feature value would be £94 with this in mind it is easy to see how it can know what its going to pay each time and still be totally random..... There are lots of ways to do it and this is just one of them and is only an example but hopefully it gives some people an idea how random can be " controlled "

Steve

Cheers Steve but I still stick to my opinions.
I dont want to open the whole is sec16 legal debate but as far as I am concerned if something is 100% random it should have no control at all. If it does have a set control this surely takes away its total randomness.