119 replies to this topic

[edwardb]

Tokens were a pain for everyone. players and manufacturers. Programming coin mechs, additional hoppers/tubes, etc. Everyone was glad to see the back of them.

 

In Germany, the machines paid out tokens for a long time, but they were 1:1 cash value (a legal loophole as you couldn't gamble for real money) so people would buy and sell the tokens in person or on eBay. The German government soon worked it out and banned them. Oh well.

[fuzion]

 
Same for Andy Capp, in fact when it did give you a 1 or 12, it would just automatically collect the 3 blue sevens and not even let you gamble.
 
Block of all blocks.
 
NQ.

I quite liked the low stake 5p versions of all those machines, well not Andy Capp that wasn't an easy machine to read. But Road Hog, Adders n Ladders, Viva Las Vegas, Hyper Viper etc were great on 5p £4 all cash jackpot.

J

[wayne123]

Some of us were certainly players..
And we always tried to make games we thought other players would like. It didn't always work but ripping people off was not a requisite. If you rip people off they don't come back and then the whole industry collapses. That said the pub companies and done other key stakeholders have not helped. Low RTP and stupid stake to jackpot ratios don't help

 

I meant the rip off by the actual game itself - i.e. the compensators and the odds of a certain event happening, i.e. out of the whole of 12 numbers available on the number reel, the only number you don't want it 11, and 9 times of out 10 - the number 11 comes out etc. - Or the famous 'limit' on the club machine when hi / lowing up the trail. - The impression the players got (well in my view anyway), there was an equal chance of any number being rolled in.

 

Another question if i may - i saw a 'player' playing a club machine with an obvious limited on the hi / lo trail, and everytime she lost she would get more and more frustrated, and want step up the trail a little more, same as the 100% holdover now - I've seen people spend £20 - £30 building up a 'better board'. only to be wiped out by a £1 cash prize - generously doubled to £2 if on red reels (usually an overprinted symbol over a mainsymbol), so is introducing player frustration part of the game design ?- and if it is, have you noticed them either being successful / disastrous ?

 

Fair enough now with the legal statement that goes on compensated machines now - as its clear to players - whatever you do, wherever a player thinks he is making a decision i.e. gamble up the trail or hi / lo, the machine will cover all eventualties to ensure it gets it %.

 

Its just that with compensated games - someone has to lose before someone can win.

 

I'm glad of the conversation we are having and im grateful for this, so please don't take it funny, its just tricks in the past - i.e. machines backing 3 x £1 coins, or 'cash full' lamps to me were just dirty tricks - others may disagree. 

 

Alas the 'fun' element has gone now as you say the j/pot ratio @ 100-1 to 400-1 (25 play), seems to give an all or nothing profile.

 

One more question if I may - the current DOND machines - does it take that much work i.e. in design, programming now to come up with a new machine - from my point of view as an ex player looking at the machines - a quick copy and paste of Noels face, and other clipart is alls that needed now.

 

With regards to repeat customers - do you think addiction was part of that ?

 

One more question - do you keep a record of the players activities whilst playing?, or review what actions a player takes i.e. towards the end of me playing machines I never gambled on a hi / lo unless the number was either 1 or 12, I think that started when the 'hi lo' jackpot was a 'bonus', even though you couldn't lose the odds of winning the jackpot on going hi on 2, or lo and 11, and getting a 1 or 12 was just a joke.

 

Please don't think im being argumentative or confrontational - in fact if I got a job designing machines i'd probably go down the same route. 

 

Thanks for reading - looking forward to your replies

[Wizard]

I agree with your comments regardfing the Hi-Lo reel, after all the game is compensated so why the hell does it have to stiff you on 2 and 11 all the time ? If you win, the win is counted and it should just adjust to compensate, simple. If it doesn't really want you to win, if should put in a 5, 6, 7 to reduce the odds of you winning.

 

I think it's just sloppy coding

Edited by Wizard, 17 July 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[edwardb]

>so is introducing player frustration part of the game design ?

 

No - why would you annoy people? They'll just walk away and play something else!

 

>One more question if I may - the current DOND machines - does it take that much work i.e. in design, programming now to come up with a new machine

 

For reglasses, no. If its a straight clone, then coding wise it's no more than a few days work. A full, totally "new" concept is roughly 12 weeks dev time (art/sounds/mechanical development overlap, of course). One programmer should be able to do 4-5 new games a year.

 

>With regards to repeat customers - do you think addiction was part of that ?

 

Yes, to a certain degree but no one ever sat around a table and said "Right, how can we get people addicted with our new game?". That just didn't (and can't) happen. I won't go off on one about addiction issues, but one of our coders at Mazooma was a devout Christian, and he reconciled his part in the picture. No difference if you are designing weapons. That's another topic

 

>One more question - do you keep a record of the players activities whilst playing?

 

No. An AWP has no storage to speak of, and if you think of the thousands of spins a game gets each week, storing data becomes a real problem. What all machine did have were "software meters" or just counters that record totals. Some developers only recorded the basics, but I recorded loads of stuff. Some of it was used to control games, i.e. if you hadn't had a board game in 50 spins (due to just bad luck), then force one in. I love stats and they're a good way of checking the game is doing what it should - or tracing errors if something goes wrong. If there's a report of an emptier, and you see a huge number of the same feature being taken, then you have a look there...

 

>if I got a job designing machines i'd probably go down the same route. 

 

You soon learn that you have to keep the roof over your head, and that there are no magic ways to make the greatest game in the world ever. A lot of reality happens about what is possible.

A new game is only a few % move on from the last - go too radical and no one would play them. Players are, believe it or not, very conservative people.

 

>so why the hell does it have to stiff you on 2 and 11 all the time ?

 

Some of that is sloppy coding, but it depends how you do it (run it semi-randomly or not). Also, people only remember the times they lose, by and large, so even though you won on 11 or 2 80% of the time, you only remember the times you got screwed. Same reason we never listened to players (other than ourselves!), really - their ideal game pays out at 400%. We did focus groups and it was hilarious. You take the most successful game of the time, and people that win on it love it, people that lose think its crap.

[fuzion]

Some of the Maygays back in the day had an obvious £5 block and would offer unwinnable numbers to give you a bit of a heads up.  

 

I think safe numbers on say Maygay Money Money Money would have been 1, 2, 3, 4, 9,10,11, 12 and if you were ever offered one of these when on £5 it would usually mean the machine was in an enriched period of play and the 'streak' was unlocked.    This applied to a lot of Maygays that had a block at £5.   Some great Maygay machines in the 90's and fair number wise.   On many later machines the higher up the trail you couldn't even class 2 or 11 as safe numbers.

 

Like said above offer an 'iffy' number. Unless you were forcing the machine a regular punter is going to collect £12 on a number 5 on the number reel, a 2 or 11 and you'd expect to win that gamble more than you actually would because of what the machine was blocking or could afford to pay.

 

J

[edwardb]

Agreed on the later Maygay games, they were terrible. That £5 block was nonsense and that comes as a result of having the wrong people in charge of design and development. There were so many games that failed test.

 

Oh well. All academic now. Many of the good guys at Maygay went to Games Media (Global as-was) and are now either out of the industry or working at some online gaming companies. Still keep in touch occasionally.

[stevedude2]

One of the last Maygays I ever played was a Coronation Street game on £25 jackpot which had some nice early 90's Indie music during the feature - The Shamen, Inspiral Carpets etc.  It was such a dire game; utterly f*****g horrific 'game-play' and entirely predictable.  You used to get feature boards that wouldn't go past £1, yet you'd get an extra life, lose it, land on a couple of nothing squares and then finally get killed.  Another was a Trivial Pursuit game that used to do things like '2 Nudges next!' with holds offered.  There would be nothing there in 2 nudges so you'd hold two cherries or something and the other reel would spin around searching for a non-winning position to land on before stopping in the same place as it was before just to get out of giving you something.  It was likely that this 'bonus' would be offered not long after a win or feature, and I suspect there was some sort of losing-game count before a win would be let through, therefore you couldn't possibly achieve anything from it.  It really was the most appalling, despicable excuse for amusement.  I remember at the time turning to my mate and saying something like 'If Maygay keep up with this sort of shit they are f***ed!'

 

And f***ed they eventually were.  Real shame considering how long they had been about and some of the fantastic games they had produced in that time.  The original Coronation Street was one of the greatest games I've ever played - exchange into the feature off a win on nudge squares hoping the sevens would be close, roll a 2 at the start of the feature board for Hair Salon or a 4 for a skill stop at the top...the game had everything.  It was top of the charts in coin-slot for weeks on end.  It's a Knockout - superb game design as was Cluedo, Gladiators...the original Monopoly - first game with a feature board.  They really went to shit.  It's f*****g sad

[fuzion]

This is why I have so much love for Electrocoin/Famous Games - Labyrinth.  Brilliant mid tech.  The awesome synth sounds.

 

J

[phattbloke]

 

>so why the hell does it have to stiff you on 2 and 11 all the time ?

 

Some of that is sloppy coding, but it depends how you do it (run it semi-randomly or not). Also, people only remember the times they lose, by and large, so even though you won on 11 or 2 80% of the time, you only remember the times you got screwed. Same reason we never listened to players (other than ourselves!), really - their ideal game pays out at 400%. We did focus groups and it was hilarious. You take the most successful game of the time, and people that win on it love it, people that lose think its crap.

 

We did a game called Frantic at Impulse, which had a true odds hi-lo reel.. it even displayed the odds of winning...

Players hated it in feedback tests, because they felt it was actually worse than a normal hi-lo...
Think about it, on a 10, you had a 2 in 11 chance of losing (18.18%) - yet most people felt safe on a 10. And because it was true odds, you saw middle numbers a lot more than you normally would.

Bell Fruits hi-lo is just terribly programmed - i'd say you lose on a 2 or 11 way more often than you win - certainly on squares which are of any value...

When i programmed fruit machines, i used to look ahead and try and avoid rolling a 2 or 11 if it would mean more than a 10% chance of not winning a gamble on that square. With a 10 and 3, i would avoid it if there was more than a 20% chance you wouldn't win the gamble. 

[phattbloke]

Agreed on the later Maygay games, they were terrible. That £5 block was nonsense and that comes as a result of having the wrong people in charge of design and development. There were so many games that failed test.

 

Oh well. All academic now. Many of the good guys at Maygay went to Games Media (Global as-was) and are now either out of the industry or working at some online gaming companies. Still keep in touch occasionally.

 

You mean the big win compensator - something that it's obvious BFG use now, or something very similar...
On most games the DOND is blocked for ages, and then all of a sudden, the reins come off...

[Johnnyafc]

 

We did a game called Frantic at Impulse, which had a true odds hi-lo reel.. it even displayed the odds of winning...

Players hated it in feedback tests, because they felt it was actually worse than a normal hi-lo...
Think about it, on a 10, you had a 2 in 11 chance of losing (18.18%) - yet most people felt safe on a 10. And because it was true odds, you saw middle numbers a lot more than you normally would.

Bell Fruits hi-lo is just terribly programmed - i'd say you lose on a 2 or 11 way more often than you win - certainly on squares which are of any value...

When i programmed fruit machines, i used to look ahead and try and avoid rolling a 2 or 11 if it would mean more than a 10% chance of not winning a gamble on that square. With a 10 and 3, i would avoid it if there was more than a 20% chance you wouldn't win the gamble. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Dont suppose you have the sound roms 

 

 

 

Attached Files

•  fran.png   183.1KB   0 downloads

Edited by Johnnyafc, 17 July 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[stevedude2]

This is why I have so much love for Electrocoin/Famous Games - Labyrinth.  Brilliant mid tech.  The awesome synth sounds.

 

J

The guy who did those style of games for Electrocoin was a member on here many years back.

[phattbloke]

 

I have zero roms from back in those days - sorry

[edwardb]

I have some of the original WAVs for Frantic somewhere, I literally have boxes of stuff on CDs (remember them?) with a load of stuff on. I have all the BGT Random Replay tunes too, and god knows what else.

[phattbloke]

I have some of the original WAVs for Frantic somewhere, I literally have boxes of stuff on CDs (remember them?) with a load of stuff on. I have all the BGT Random Replay tunes too, and god knows what else.

How the hell... Lol

[Magz]

Anyone remember the random hi-lo machine that had the 3x4 squares and a ping pong ball that was bounced around to select the next number?

 

IIRC it wasn't around long but it did (mostly) get to the £2.40 on a gamble unless you got a bit unlucky...

[vectra666]

gamball by barcrest i think 

Attached Files

•  Barcrest Gamball.jpg   306.09KB   0 downloads

[Magz]

Yeah, that's the one. Quality machine in many ways, although it could go very cold if it was over %...

[edwardb]

How the hell... Lol

 

You sent them to me when you were at Impulse!!