ive heard from a very reliable source, that nobles and the like have a `rechip` inside their party sluttos. the outcome of this re-chip is that the feature game (when you pick the nurse or the other characters) can give odd amount like £2.10 etc, rather than the normal amount.
it may not sound much, but if you were to add up 10 lots of, say £2.10 instead of 10 lots of £3 £6 £17.50 etc etc, you can see a difference.
When we asked astra directly, he refused to tell us `how` this was possible, but did not retract our comment that "some machines on sites are chipped"
thats nobles for you.
119 replies to this topic
#22
Nudgeman
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Posted 19 September 2005 - 10:11 PM
"Once you start chasing though, you're screwed."
Why? If it's totally random you're only losing the same each spin (on average) as you were before. The more you play, the more you're likely to lose, but surely if what you say is correct, you have every sporting chance of getting the jackpot as well?
I'll tell you what I think. Firstly, I was the poster on 'Amusement Arcade' who worte the original prose quoted at the start of thread.
When Magic Games 2 first hit the arcade shelves last year it was billed as being a 'random' game. Ditto with some of Reflex Gamings stuff - billed as totally random by the manufacturers and my local operators. Lo and behold, a year later it transpires there was a bug with Reflex's Hot Spot which showed it definitely wasn't random and apparently (I never played the things) neither were the Magic Games 2.
Then we have Slotto and Liner later on. With a sign on the front of the cabinet informing us that the game is "100% random". Just like the FOBTs which are suppossedly 100% random, again I've only played them on a fleeting number of occassions, but many hardcore players believe they are not random. Addict paranoia? Or justified cheated punters? I've heard so many people from all different walks of life moaning that perhaps they do have a point. Again, this is not 100% proof.
Since then I've been chatting with a few deep players and Industry bods by email. Combining their anecdotes and a little experiment with my own personal experience I came by this hunch. I cannot 100% wholeheartedly declare it is the case, but we have come across suspicious behaviour on both Liner and Slotto.
There's a little question here. Surely the games would do just as well if they were totally random, as if they were following cycles. The answer is they probably would. Trouble is, the Industry doesn't work like this. These games are rife (again this is hearsay) with anti-player technology. They are partly prescripted. If someone has lost £200, then won back £100, the bias will flow to keeping the player at that point in the game if it is paying under %. It is more profitable to get the money cycled through and through, rather than pay a jackpot and have the player walk off. Essentially the RNG is used to generate a gradient of luck. The 'best' number at this point of the game may only yield a £50 win, where at other times it would cause the jackpot to drop in.
Again Stevedude may be entirely correct, but chances are he's only involved in an aspect of design/testing and the full picture can be effectively concealed from him. I would be intrigued to know for which company he works.
The box you see on the side of most S16s contains an RNG and a 'cache'. There is a feedback loop to check the status of the RNG. If that loop is fed a false positive after the cache has been fixed with a winning number the results are astonishing.
At first it appears as if high wins are spinning in at random. This was done on 8 Liner. Although the jackpot didn't come in at all, plenty of Bar wins appeared within the first fifteen spins, after that, dramatic supression came into play. It seemed cherries/no wins and the occassional bigger win occurred. The machine still seemed to be paying over 100% though, eventually we had caused an unnatural drift of a couple of Ks. After removing the false +ve feedback and allowing the machine to function normally we entered a section of abysmal gameplay, the single cherries coming in for about every £80 on £4 spin! After £420 in, it did drop in £100 on the bars. An anomoly. Random behaviour is perhaps allowed for to some extent. Like a conventional hi-tech AWP a 'pot save constant' allows the player to get lucky. Strange though that when fed exactly the same number - the wins changed and the wins lessened as if % control was in play.
That is why I say they're almost like long cycle machines, just a bit more random, but certainly not 100% random.
I imagine chasing a jackpot on these would be suicide! The anti-player technology would kick in to keep you hooked.
Trust me, evidence insinuated that these are definitely hooky to some degree.
Best way to play these is to limit yourself to a set stake beforehand. In the long run you may even be looking at +100% payout!
Why? If it's totally random you're only losing the same each spin (on average) as you were before. The more you play, the more you're likely to lose, but surely if what you say is correct, you have every sporting chance of getting the jackpot as well?
I'll tell you what I think. Firstly, I was the poster on 'Amusement Arcade' who worte the original prose quoted at the start of thread.
When Magic Games 2 first hit the arcade shelves last year it was billed as being a 'random' game. Ditto with some of Reflex Gamings stuff - billed as totally random by the manufacturers and my local operators. Lo and behold, a year later it transpires there was a bug with Reflex's Hot Spot which showed it definitely wasn't random and apparently (I never played the things) neither were the Magic Games 2.
Then we have Slotto and Liner later on. With a sign on the front of the cabinet informing us that the game is "100% random". Just like the FOBTs which are suppossedly 100% random, again I've only played them on a fleeting number of occassions, but many hardcore players believe they are not random. Addict paranoia? Or justified cheated punters? I've heard so many people from all different walks of life moaning that perhaps they do have a point. Again, this is not 100% proof.
Since then I've been chatting with a few deep players and Industry bods by email. Combining their anecdotes and a little experiment with my own personal experience I came by this hunch. I cannot 100% wholeheartedly declare it is the case, but we have come across suspicious behaviour on both Liner and Slotto.
There's a little question here. Surely the games would do just as well if they were totally random, as if they were following cycles. The answer is they probably would. Trouble is, the Industry doesn't work like this. These games are rife (again this is hearsay) with anti-player technology. They are partly prescripted. If someone has lost £200, then won back £100, the bias will flow to keeping the player at that point in the game if it is paying under %. It is more profitable to get the money cycled through and through, rather than pay a jackpot and have the player walk off. Essentially the RNG is used to generate a gradient of luck. The 'best' number at this point of the game may only yield a £50 win, where at other times it would cause the jackpot to drop in.
Again Stevedude may be entirely correct, but chances are he's only involved in an aspect of design/testing and the full picture can be effectively concealed from him. I would be intrigued to know for which company he works.
The box you see on the side of most S16s contains an RNG and a 'cache'. There is a feedback loop to check the status of the RNG. If that loop is fed a false positive after the cache has been fixed with a winning number the results are astonishing.
At first it appears as if high wins are spinning in at random. This was done on 8 Liner. Although the jackpot didn't come in at all, plenty of Bar wins appeared within the first fifteen spins, after that, dramatic supression came into play. It seemed cherries/no wins and the occassional bigger win occurred. The machine still seemed to be paying over 100% though, eventually we had caused an unnatural drift of a couple of Ks. After removing the false +ve feedback and allowing the machine to function normally we entered a section of abysmal gameplay, the single cherries coming in for about every £80 on £4 spin! After £420 in, it did drop in £100 on the bars. An anomoly. Random behaviour is perhaps allowed for to some extent. Like a conventional hi-tech AWP a 'pot save constant' allows the player to get lucky. Strange though that when fed exactly the same number - the wins changed and the wins lessened as if % control was in play.
That is why I say they're almost like long cycle machines, just a bit more random, but certainly not 100% random.
I imagine chasing a jackpot on these would be suicide! The anti-player technology would kick in to keep you hooked.
Trust me, evidence insinuated that these are definitely hooky to some degree.
Best way to play these is to limit yourself to a set stake beforehand. In the long run you may even be looking at +100% payout!
@_!!
#23
jamesb99_1999
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 07:16 AM
There is really no such thing as a random number - ------ Computers can never truly create a random number - yes they can use the clock etc. to randomise however by doing that it is not random etc.. Also if you believe in chaos you cannot believe in randomness. I believe in the chaos theory, one of the things that makes me strongly believe this is every so often I take my mother to bingo and amazingly often the person who has one win will have more than one. if there are 500 people in the club and regularly one person wins 4 times and there are only 33 seperate winners in total for it to happen as often as it does defies all odds... And also I never win -- as the b*stard god of luck knows that it's me and stops me --- damn you chaos!!! lol - j/k partly
J<br /><br /><br /><br />A man
#24
Winnie
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 05:48 PM
Interesting post Nudgeman. I have thought a few times how it seems odd that you might get a decent(ish) win on the random machines (say £50 - £100) and then it goes absolutely dead!
Seems mighty suspicious to me.
The thing that is lacking within the fruit machine industry is transparancy, they seem scared to death that certain "players" will gain an advantage - surely this is for arcades/pubs to police, not the manufacturers? One of the reasons I picked the Fortune 500 as my current machine of choice is that it displays the percentage in great neon numerals for you to see. One of the reasons I have stopped playing the £25 AWP machines is because every arcade will have them on various percentages and I don't care what anyone says anything less than 92% payout is extortion. I must commend Showboat/Quicksilver in this respect, they normally have the exact percentage displayed and will show you on request.
A fundamental rule of business (and life in general) is that you don't bite the hand that feeds. Ha ha...
Seems mighty suspicious to me.
The thing that is lacking within the fruit machine industry is transparancy, they seem scared to death that certain "players" will gain an advantage - surely this is for arcades/pubs to police, not the manufacturers? One of the reasons I picked the Fortune 500 as my current machine of choice is that it displays the percentage in great neon numerals for you to see. One of the reasons I have stopped playing the £25 AWP machines is because every arcade will have them on various percentages and I don't care what anyone says anything less than 92% payout is extortion. I must commend Showboat/Quicksilver in this respect, they normally have the exact percentage displayed and will show you on request.
A fundamental rule of business (and life in general) is that you don't bite the hand that feeds. Ha ha...
#25
barxfan
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 07:03 PM
Erm, Quicksilver and Showboat black out the displayed minimum percentage stickers. They are on 92% for their £25 lo-lechs though.
Shipleys are the worst for low percentages. Their Electrocoins can be set as low as 82%. I know because I keyed some of them recently. Don't play in Shipleys.
I agree, 92% should be the absolute minimum. Anything less can be a very flat and greedy game. 78% in the pubs is a total freaking joke - and they wonder why AWP takings in pubs are down !
Shipleys are the worst for low percentages. Their Electrocoins can be set as low as 82%. I know because I keyed some of them recently. Don't play in Shipleys.
I agree, 92% should be the absolute minimum. Anything less can be a very flat and greedy game. 78% in the pubs is a total freaking joke - and they wonder why AWP takings in pubs are down !
#26
pash
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 08:01 PM
i think i wouls hit myself if i got to play on a machine on 92% up north i have never found an arcade or pub with the %ages set to more tahn 78% most of them are set to the bare minimum 70% which is disgusting
Pash - Fruit-emu moderator
#27
skabaz
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 08:10 PM
we did an experiment in our arcade about a year ago and put various machines in the arcade on high % and the rest on 84% inc hi techs.
the dozen machines we put on 90% all ran on negative takings compared with the 84% machines which made a good profit but also paid out quite well.
i find it impossible for an arcade to survive on machines running at 92%
the industry standard for pubs and clubs is 78% but for arcades its 84%
baz
the dozen machines we put on 90% all ran on negative takings compared with the 84% machines which made a good profit but also paid out quite well.
i find it impossible for an arcade to survive on machines running at 92%
the industry standard for pubs and clubs is 78% but for arcades its 84%
baz
#28
stevedude2
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 08:20 PM
At least most lo-techs can't be set lower than 80%, unlike hi-techs. Saying that though, I once encountered a Ker-Ching! by JPM that showed 70% on start-up. It was in an arcade run by Greeks, and played an atrocious game for the poor unfortunate fellow who ventured onto it, having strayed away from the main decent arcades and stumbled upon this place. Full up from the off, he lost well over a ton in it in less than an hour and left it full. Even then I didn't even bother playing it.
It took three years to persuade those stubborb Greek rip-off merchants to up their percentages to something tolerable, but even then they never got past the very low 80's, which for a £25 jackpot lo-tech machine is not acceptable, considering the 1/100 or 1/83.33 stake/jackpot ratio. By then the damage had been done. They had no regular clientelle, and survived by ripping off day-trippers, who never went back. In desperation they then did a 'changing-rooms' and the arcade transformed into a 'trendy' bar over a few days, and now the local under-aged chavs can get sloshed and start fights as the police turn a blind eye while checking the tread on my tyres...
Would anyone happen to know the minimum percentage setting available for Mazooma's Golden Game? It's just that I played one in Cromer in Norfolk a few weeks ago and have never experienced anything near the abysmal gameplay that it had to offer. Fair enough it was chipped so the flashes always auto-nudged, but that's really not a problem. It was the fact that from genuinely full up it seemed to take forever for anything to happen. Those fiver pots filled up so slowly they felt like the jackpots on the ones I usually play. £20 to get it 'holding' and despite a couple of £15's sprinkled in with the usual fiver features I could do no better than lose £40 on it, and that was playing it optimally. There wasn't a sniff of a chance for the extra £25 feature steal after the show was over. For gameplay that bad you would expect the big feature to be able to go for £125 instead of the common £85, not that I saw one. The best percentage that machine could have been on was 80%, and I'm convinced it was less.
Any ideas? Bazpeeb? Chr...Nudgeman?
It took three years to persuade those stubborb Greek rip-off merchants to up their percentages to something tolerable, but even then they never got past the very low 80's, which for a £25 jackpot lo-tech machine is not acceptable, considering the 1/100 or 1/83.33 stake/jackpot ratio. By then the damage had been done. They had no regular clientelle, and survived by ripping off day-trippers, who never went back. In desperation they then did a 'changing-rooms' and the arcade transformed into a 'trendy' bar over a few days, and now the local under-aged chavs can get sloshed and start fights as the police turn a blind eye while checking the tread on my tyres...
Would anyone happen to know the minimum percentage setting available for Mazooma's Golden Game? It's just that I played one in Cromer in Norfolk a few weeks ago and have never experienced anything near the abysmal gameplay that it had to offer. Fair enough it was chipped so the flashes always auto-nudged, but that's really not a problem. It was the fact that from genuinely full up it seemed to take forever for anything to happen. Those fiver pots filled up so slowly they felt like the jackpots on the ones I usually play. £20 to get it 'holding' and despite a couple of £15's sprinkled in with the usual fiver features I could do no better than lose £40 on it, and that was playing it optimally. There wasn't a sniff of a chance for the extra £25 feature steal after the show was over. For gameplay that bad you would expect the big feature to be able to go for £125 instead of the common £85, not that I saw one. The best percentage that machine could have been on was 80%, and I'm convinced it was less.
Any ideas? Bazpeeb? Chr...Nudgeman?
Watch out! There's a SIG thief about...
#29
skabaz
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 08:30 PM
not sure about golden game but party times can be set to 70% or above.
baz
baz
#30
eddiec
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Posted 20 September 2005 - 11:34 PM
Just reading nails' comment by itself would be enough for me to tell astra to naff off,
the gaming industry/whatever commission is supposed to have set rules that the rules
are bs, and take a sledgehammer to those chipped fsckers. So damn glad I don't play
them any more, other than emus.
the gaming industry/whatever commission is supposed to have set rules that the rules
are bs, and take a sledgehammer to those chipped fsckers. So damn glad I don't play
them any more, other than emus.
#31
stevedude2
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Posted 21 September 2005 - 07:24 AM
Yes I have also heard about Astra's Party Games Slotto having two profiles. Both return 94% or whatever percentage they are supposed to, but in different ways. One profile pays regular medium wins of £50-£150, plenty of features but very few jackpots, resulting in a softer game for the player, with a regular hit. On the other setting there is more percentage allocated to the jackpot, allowing it to come in more. To compensate, some percentage is probably skimmed frrom the hit on the pick 'em feature, and the prizes it returns appear to be smaller. You can tell because you see far less feature symbols when you play.
I believe both settings still pay 94%, it's just whether you want a lumpy game or a smooth game. Astra's way of catering for all tastes I suppose...
I believe both settings still pay 94%, it's just whether you want a lumpy game or a smooth game. Astra's way of catering for all tastes I suppose...
Watch out! There's a SIG thief about...
#32
spa
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 08:35 PM
Yes I have also heard about Astra's Party Games Slotto having two profiles. Both return 94% or whatever percentage they are supposed to, but in different ways. One profile pays regular medium wins of £50-£150, plenty of features but very few jackpots, resulting in a softer game for the player, with a regular hit. On the other setting there is more percentage allocated to the jackpot, allowing it to come in more. To compensate, some percentage is probably skimmed frrom the hit on the pick 'em feature, and the prizes it returns appear to be smaller. You can tell because you see far less feature symbols when you play.
I believe both settings still pay 94%, it's just whether you want a lumpy game or a smooth game. Astra's way of catering for all tastes I suppose...
How can a 'random' machine have 2 profiles?
At a wild guess (saying there's a 1000 numbers, 1 being £500 2-6 being £250 etc all the way to 500-1000 being £1) could the machine drop the 2-6 for £250 and have 1-3 as £500 and then onward for then with less £250 wins?
That random spinner one, 20 segs on the wheel, £15 - £500. Would the £500 have 1 number and the £15 have 500 numbers so although being random the odds are seriously stacked against you?
I like these machines, would say i'm winning overall on then since they've come out, £250 being my best win yet from £6. Had a £200 from £2 which made my heart skip a beat lol. Both from that random spinner one. I've never pulled up a chair and plunged notes in, i've seen the results from that. Only one time some woman was playing the monopoly one and it was going mad, lots of wins, emptied it twice over. Jackpot came in with multi spins on the board (starting with £250 going all the way to £500). The owner said she was on it for about 4 hours and came away £800+ up!
I also heard that these section 16 machines are to become section 21 machines and not allowed in arcades.
#33
GaryMPU34
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:37 PM
A random machine can have 2 profiles quite easy.
Take Party Time as an example, the hard profile gives more jackpots and less features, the soft gives more features and less jackpots.
This is done by using 2 tables to pick the symbols, the hard profile has less chance of getting the feature in and lands on more lower value symbols but may pick the jackpot with a 1 in 10000 chance, the soft profile gives more mid value feature wins but may pick the jackpot with a 1 in 30000 chance. Both profiles will be worked out to be the same percentage but will deliver it differently
edit: or basically what steve said above
Take Party Time as an example, the hard profile gives more jackpots and less features, the soft gives more features and less jackpots.
This is done by using 2 tables to pick the symbols, the hard profile has less chance of getting the feature in and lands on more lower value symbols but may pick the jackpot with a 1 in 10000 chance, the soft profile gives more mid value feature wins but may pick the jackpot with a 1 in 30000 chance. Both profiles will be worked out to be the same percentage but will deliver it differently
edit: or basically what steve said above
#34
khards
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:43 PM
Have a look at
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx4.html
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx5.html
I hope this puts an end to some speculation, as you can see it is easy to have several profiles, I have use the information in this article for our own 50 line S16 Slot (Under development)
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx4.html
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx5.html
I hope this puts an end to some speculation, as you can see it is easy to have several profiles, I have use the information in this article for our own 50 line S16 Slot (Under development)
#35
GaryMPU34
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:43 PM
How can a 'random' machine have 2 profiles?
At a wild guess (saying there's a 1000 numbers, 1 being £500 2-6 being £250 etc all the way to 500-1000 being £1) could the machine drop the 2-6 for £250 and have 1-3 as £500 and then onward for then with less £250 wins?
That random spinner one, 20 segs on the wheel, £15 - £500. Would the £500 have 1 number and the £15 have 500 numbers so although being random the odds are seriously stacked against you?
exactly right, and the average win value over the 1000 numbers being picked would be used as the award value for the feature when the percentage is worked out. I am working on a random sec 16 machine that has a feature that can pay between £1 and £500 but the average win is about £20
I also heard that these section 16 machines are to become section 21 machines and not allowed in arcades.
Not strictly true, nothing has been decided yet and could still be 2 years before anything changes regarding the laws but at the end of the day I am pretty certain there will still be £500 jackpot machines in arcades
#36
GaryMPU34
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 09:45 PM
Have a look at
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx4.html
http://wizardofodds....s/slotapx5.html
I hope this puts an end to some speculation, as you can see it is easy to have several profiles, I have use the information in this article for our own 50 line S16 Slot (Under development)
Hope each line cant have a win bigger than £10 else the gaming board might get a bit pissed off. There is a "gentlemans agreement" that £500 is the maximum award allowed in one spin
#37
nails
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Posted 22 September 2005 - 10:08 PM
an interesting read i am sure, and may indeed work on online slots, but the fact of the matter is that some reel wins crop up exactly the sake again, bellfruits random spinner is a classic.
if the odds displayed on the wizard site applied to random spinner, the chances of getting that same setup are well over thousands to one.
its alwayd been about personal believe, and i still believe that sharking a `totally random` machine can pay off.
if the odds displayed on the wizard site applied to random spinner, the chances of getting that same setup are well over thousands to one.
its alwayd been about personal believe, and i still believe that sharking a `totally random` machine can pay off.
#38
stevedude2
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Posted 23 September 2005 - 07:38 AM
Nails, the reason the same wins keep appearing in the same way is probably because the list of reel layouts for that particular win is very short. Ordinarily when the background game chooses a £5 win for example, the game looks at a pre-determined list of ways to show that £5 win on the reels, or cycles through loads of spins until it finds one. Maybe there is a bug and the machine keeps using the same select few spins to show the win, resulting in repetition.
You're quite right when you say there are millions of reel combos and you should not see the same one twice in the same day, but the way Random Spinner works makes this quite possible. As I said, on this game (but not all games) there is a background game and the reels show the result. This is obvious because otherwise it would be possible to get five aces for £500 with the double joker there too, for £1000.
You're quite right when you say there are millions of reel combos and you should not see the same one twice in the same day, but the way Random Spinner works makes this quite possible. As I said, on this game (but not all games) there is a background game and the reels show the result. This is obvious because otherwise it would be possible to get five aces for £500 with the double joker there too, for £1000.
Watch out! There's a SIG thief about...
#39
Sarky
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Posted 23 September 2005 - 11:50 AM
Hope each line cant have a win bigger than £10 else the gaming board might get a bit pissed off. There is a "gentlemans agreement" that £500 is the maximum award allowed in one spin
Yeah, there's at least one other S16 that has a > £500 jackpot by Concept. The guys at the Gaming Board say even though they're not happy with it, it's not illegal and therefore there's nothing they can do about it. Not yet anyway - when licensing of manufacturers comes in, those who are not playing by the rules now may find themselves having a hard time.
#40
Sarky
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Posted 23 September 2005 - 12:00 PM
I am pretty certain there will still be £500 jackpot machines in arcades
Arcades will be allowed at least 4 x £500 AWPs and they won't have to be random. It's very likely S16 games will be reclassified into this category, although as you say it's not set in stone yet.
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